How bad does it have to get before we “get it?”
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I already know I’m flirting with the legal hair-splitters. There will be at least two messages (possibly three) reminding me that the detainees from Iraq and Afghanistan do not wear uniforms so the laws of the Geneva Conventions do not apply. Ergo, the United States has not broken any laws. Blah. Blah. Blah. In spite of this legal hair-splitting, the Geneva Conventions were violated. There are scholars and experts calling for investigation and indictment. Who am I more likely to believe? Sorry, I’m erring on the side of those not splitting hairs. There will also be at least one other message, one denying that any torture ever happened. The person will call me un-American and un-patriotic. At this point, with all the evidence spread out for all to see, denying our venture into torture is almost like being a Holocaust denier. However, the whole issue of torture goes much deeper than that. It goes to character - of both a people and a nation.
The great shape shifter (as opposed to savior), Barack Obama, has already vowed to protect from prosecution those who actually inflicted the physical and mental torture on other human beings. I guess the logic is that these people shouldn’t have a price to pay since they were instructed to do it from on high. Interesting concept but, you see, we all have choices. This should resonate particularly with Catholics and Christians of all denominations - it’s called “free will” I believe. And it means we are all responsible for our own actions. We don’t have to do anything we are told to do if it is wrong. I may be Buddhist now, but I went to catholic school for fourteen years and I’m pretty clear about what I was taught there. I’m also pretty clear on what a Buddhist should do if faced with that decision. Democrat or no Democrat, I think Barack Obama’s position is pretty disgusting, not to mention cowardly.
Everyone involved should be investigated and everyone involved should be open to accountability for their actions - regardless of where they sit in the chain of command. We already know it’s going to reach all the way to the top. There is absolutely no question at this point. There was absolutely no question back in 2008 when George W. Bush himself admitted on national television that he knew what was going on. Dick Cheney has spent the better part of three months making the rounds bragging about his part in this disgusting practice, proud of his ‘patriotism’ and actions. And Condoleezza Rice signed paperwork attesting to the fact that she ran high-level discussions about torture techniques at the White House - she brought her attorney along with her because she at least knows this is nothing to take lightly. So, for the deniers out there, call me what you will but I’m not responding to any of those comments this time. The fact that it happened is not in question, and I’m not wasting my time with the obvious.
The torture inflicted throughout the Bush administration (and, by the way, continuing under the shape shifter) has produced not one significant breakthrough. We have not stopped one terrorist event. None of the information has been useful or productive. Why? Well, common sense is all that is needed to figure this one out. It ain’t rocket science: People being tortured will say anything to make it stop. It’s as simple as that. Our use of torture has accomplished some things. For example, it has pretty much opened the door so that nations with which we engage in conflict can inflict torture on American service people. Turnabout is fair play, as they say. Torture has also helped to recruit thousands of people to attack us in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
President Obama says its important to look forward. On that we can agree. However, if President Obama thinks that this nation can sweep such disgraceful activity under the carpet and successfully move forward, he’s just plain wrong. Are the American people aware that Jay Bybee, who authored the actual memo authorizing torture, is now a lifetime sitting Federal Judge? This evil clown is sitting in judgment of others right now, and I find that sickening. President Obama’s release of the torture memos for public consumption without holding those who committed these atrocities accountable is a waste of time. It’s political grandstanding at its best.
Yet, President Obama is being praised for releasing them to the public. Frankly, that praise is misdirected. The ACLU should be commended for these memos being released. It was their dogged determination that got them released under the Freedom of Information Act. Do you believe Obama would have released them otherwise? The American people should not be content with President Obama’s performance to date because he is obstructing justice, plain and simple. Why? Because he knows full well that the investigation will end up at the door of the previous inhabitant of the Oval Office, and that might be a bit politically uncomfortable. Too bad. President Obama knew what he was getting into and he went after the job with great gusto, didn’t he? Did he expect that he would have the option of enforcing our laws? Thanks, but no thanks. We’ve already had an administration that believed it had the right to break those laws. And now we have an Obama administration that is doing exactly what the Nixon administration did back in the seventies by preventing the wheels of justice from turning.
Essentially, what’s the big deal here? What is everyone afraid of? The conservatives and members of the DOP (Desperate Old Party) left in D.C. are screaming that no laws were broken. Fine. Let’s put that to the test. Let’s do the right thing: Appoint a truly independent prosecutor to investigate the war crimes, and allow the investigation to go where it will. If laws were broken, then those who broke them - no matter who - must be indicted and held accountable. If no laws were broken, so be it. Either way, it’s a win-win situation for this country because adherence to the law and the pursuit of justice are fundamental American principles.
For those who insist no laws were broken, it’s time to pay attention to a constitutional scholar.
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For those who think Mr. Obama is to be commended, listen to this:
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For those who don’t think any of this happened and that I am patently un-American, please visit my Scribd site.
There are links throughout this article, and here are some additional articles:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-conyers/our-responsibility_b_162704.html
http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2007/08/10/jane-mayer-on-the-cias-black-sites/
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22530
If you can deny that torture was carried after reading these documents, then your brainwashing is complete and irreversible.
For the rest of us, it isn’t enough to sit around and shake our heads in disgust and dismay. Get on the phone to your Senators and Congressmen and demand an independent prosecutor. It’s time for America to return to the rule of law without exception.
Comment by Patty on 17 April 2009:
BLAH! blah! blah! Indeed. More tripe.
Comment by Hurricane on 17 April 2009:
I recall reading one story on torture in Atlantic Magazine in which a general within a Latin American dictatorship told of a situation in which terrorists had planted a bomb in the downtown area of the capital city. The three terrorists were caught but wouldn’t tell where the bomb was planted, and it was set to go off in a half hour. The general simply shot the terrorist in the middle between the eyes. He said, “Then the others sang like canaries.” The bomb was defused and hundreds of lives of innocent people were saved. I wonder what I, as a firm believer in American values regarding fairness, would have done.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 17 April 2009:
Hey Patty, welcome back. I’m not interested in going toe to toe with your childish commentary like the last post, so instead let me issue a challenge. If my post is drivel, why don’t you go ahead and create a post that refutes everything I say, every ounce of back-up I present, and how my reasoning is ‘tripe.’ That would certainly be a breath of fresh air.
Comment by patty on 17 April 2009:
You do so well dicrediting yourself and your argument by using mis and disinformation I couldn’t possible do better,
Comment by Richard on 17 April 2009:
My point remains wherever there is law breaking there should be punishment. If a military man/woman did so punohs them. Your thesis is too inclusive. The UCMJ (uniformed Code of Military Justice) is explicit in that, and your dismissive attitude toward them and those in JAG is simply incorrect.
I do not think you advance your case by sourcing MSNBC-Olberman, et. al., Huffington Post, etc. because of their obvious bias and proved record of disception.
I disagree torture is ineffective - it is not, and reluctantly I can see why is might be used. That does not mean I agree but I refer to Hurricane’s post.
Perhaps you can explain how making someone uncomofrtable while saving other’s lives is unjust?
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 17 April 2009:
Patty, nice try. If there’s one thing I’m confident about, it’s my writing and my research. There is absolutely no misinformation here. If it’s misinformation, it’s being put out by our government. That would mean both the Bush and Obama governments, by the way. Nope. This stuff is straight out of the horses’ mouths.
It is you who cannot and will not refute it, and that’s why you won’t take the issue up. You know, you might have to search for facts that refute what I’ve presented, and be coherent enough to actually make a case for your position instead of taking cheap shots at people. This is exactly what I expected.
Comment by Patty on 18 April 2009:
I have no doubt you are self assured. My only question is about what?
Comment by Joker on 1 May 2009:
The fact that you use clips from MSNBC to back up your arguments shows that you are not interested in the facts of what you are discussing, only more ultra left buffalo bagels. MSNBC has even less journalistic credibility than the New York Times, which isn’t saying a lot for Keith and crew.
Allow me to set you straight on the torture issue. First off, even John McCain is on record saying that there are certain circumstances where you “do what you have to do,” and he is a staunch torture opponent. People like you Deb, who likely never served one day in uniform for these United States, have all these high-handed opinions based on not one iota of life experience. Were talking about hard decisions here, where millions of lives are at stake. To suggest that we apply a black and white rule with no ambiguity to any matter of national security is beyond obtuse.
For the record, I don’t condone torture as a general practice. There’s a big difference between what our government has actually done and why, and what you have written here. There’s a big difference between brutally torturing some captured infantry corporal to learn the size and strength of his unit in the field (as the Nazis did), as opposed to waterboarding a man who may hold the key to an act that could kill thousands or millions. Personally, if I knew that the Feds had a terrorist in custody who they knew held the key to 9/11 before it happened, I’d have hoped they would have held a straight razor to his testicles and started cutting, rather than let history unfold as it did.
You say torture under Bush, “has produced not one significant breakthrough. We have not stopped one terrorist event. None of the information has been useful or productive.”
Survey says! WRONG ANSWER!
Here are just a few facts ma’am:
George Tenet said that the “enhanced interrogation” program alone yielded more information than everything gotten from “the FBI, the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency put together.”
Michael Hayden, CIA director after waterboarding had been discontinued, writes (with former attorney general Michael Mukasey) that “as late as 2006 . . . fully half of the government’s knowledge about the structure and activities of al-Qaeda came from those interrogations.”
Even Dennis Blair, Obama’s director of national intelligence, concurs that these interrogations yielded “high value information.”
Do you or any other of the mindless liberal twits crying “Stop the Torture!” do any sort of research at all? Do you read? I guess I should qualify those questions to include beyond commie TV (MSNBC) and the NY Times, “all the left tilted news that’s fit to print.”
Just what do you propose we should have done with Khalid Sheik Mohammed? Given him 5 course meals, plenty of cigarettes and Direct TV in his cell? Asked him what his favorite color was?
The man who boasted of personally beheading Daniel Pearl with a butcher knife answered questions about plots with “soon you will know”
Now I’m sorry, but to me that means A) This bastard knows something, and B) He’s laughing in our faces because he thinks/knows we won’t be able to make him talk. In the aftermath of 9/11, we didn’t have time to screw around and play patty-cake with this bastard. That’s what the issue of torture has to be weighed against, and important questions asked. How many lives are at stake here? How much time do we have? Is there anyone else or any other way we can go besides this person? At the time, we all feared more attacks were imminent. So we broke out the pliers and the blow torch, or whatever they actually used, and guess what? We found out A LOT, and people are walking around alive today who would otherwise be dead.
Stick all that in your liberal moral compass.
It’s also come to light, see this link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664.html
that Congress, including the despicable harpie Nancy Pelosi, was completely briefed on the CIA’s intention to use waterboarding and other interrogation techniques, and this was in 2002!
The result? No protests against it. No public move to cut off funding. No outcry to the press or to Bush to “not do it.”
Today, in a true demonstration of Clintonian memory, Pelosi insists she was never informed of waterboarding or other enhanced interrogation methods. I’m shocked, SHOCKED to hear that. The limited memory of liberal hypocrites is astounding to say the least.
Your drivel about “atrocities” is laughable, and yes, it is un-American. When are you going to get it through your thick skull that certain hard decisions have to be made in hard times when millions of lives are at stake? What do think this is, some kind of encounter group? Wake the #%@! up. I don’t care how much Obama stands there and says “We don’t torture.” That will never stop a foreign government from torturing a captured American if they think he has information that they absolutely must have.
You discuss issues of national security like it’s some sort of PETA campaign to stop people from wearing fur. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are still totally wrong here. You have no facts to back up your drum beating, and you’re just another ungrateful whiner who’s enjoying the view from the cheap seats while others are out there doing what has to be done to keep you and your family safe from harm. The fact that you sit there and spit on the very people who you should be on your knees thanking quite frankly disgusts me.
You want discussion? I’ll give you discussion. I won’t just hurl insults. I’ll hurl facts and documentation at you all day long to refute any argument you want to put up about any issue. Socialized medicine, abortion, gay marriage, illegal immigration, the Patriot Act, you name it. I’ve read your stuff plenty now, and all I see are fact-devoid rants. You are no match for me miss. Bring it on.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 2 May 2009:
Hey Joker,know what? I DON’T NEED YOU TO SET ME STRAIGHT ON ANYTHING, let alone torture. Where are YOUR facts? Refute everyone of mine…without, of course, going to the standard conservative fare of accusing me of being un-American and un-Patriotic. That’s old and tired.
Let me tell you something else. I didn’t go to MSNBC for my information. The gentlemen who happens to be an expert was on MSNBC. Don’t split hairs, Joker. Get real. And you are right. I am entitled to my opinion. The one thing I absolutely do is research everything I write. The information is out there in overwhelming volume on this one. This isn’t a vast un-American conspiracy, pal. This is real and it is wrong. My opinion isn’t going to change.
I’m not defending Obama either. He gets a “D” for his first 100 days. He needs to get the hell out of the way and allow the legal system to follow its course. If he doesn’t, he’s obstructing justice.
And I’m not trying to be a match for you, pal. I’m not interested. Don’t come onto my blog and act ignorant. Get your own for that. If you can’t do anything but be insulting and hurl unfounded accusations, I’m not going to indulge you. Period. I’m interested in discussions on both sides of the aisle. I’m not interested in you coming over to my blog like you are the repository of all knowledge. You aren’t.
And as far as my articles being fact-devoid, take a look at what you’ve written here. Where are your facts? There aren’t any. I blog elsewhere. Many people disagree with your assessment and I could care less what you think.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 2 May 2009:
Oh, and Joker, one more thing: I don’t know who you think you are, but don’t you EVER call me missy again. I have a name. Use it. Save ‘missy’ for someone else that you consider beneath you.
Comment by Meow on 2 May 2009:
Missy’s mad at you joker. She likes to dish it out but she sure can’t take it. Tear her up.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 2 May 2009:
You’re a real sweetheart but, alas, another loser. You still didn’t answer my challenge that I left you a week or so ago. Nope. You just disappeared. Know why? Because childish stuff like this is all you are capable of. I have never been as ignorant as you. See ya.
Comment by Meow on 2 May 2009:
Why is it the thin skinned are so thick headed? You didn’t challenge me to anything Missy.
Comment by joker on 2 May 2009:
Looks like we’re having a discussion to me. You’re on your side of the aisle, and I’m on mine.
Apparently Meow is correct Deb. You can dish it out but you can’t take it. I’ve seen you tell others that being sarcastic is just the way you write. I hate to break the news to you, but you don’t have a patent on sarcasm. Who do I think I am? I’ll tell you. Someone who served in the armed forces for one, and someone who knows the facts and can prove you wrong. If you can’t admit no matter how passionate you may be that your facts are not there, I’m sorry. If you can prove me wrong, I’ll admit it. That is the difference between a liberal and a conservative.
I don’t know why you have a political blog if you’re going to tell me not to come here and disprove what you say. If telling you to wake the “blank” up is insulting, oh well. I’m wondering if you actually read my whole post. The third sentence of your response is “Where are your facts?”
Um….gee Deb, did you like miss the part where I mentioned George Tenet, Michael Hayden, former attorney general Michael Mukasey, and Dennis Blair? Did you miss the link I gave to the Post article? Call me crazy, but I could swear those were “facts” in support of my argument. If I had only mentioned your lack of patriotism by wanting to indict your protectors, I guess that would be old and tired. But I could swear I threw some facts and salient points in too, which you of course ignored and failed to address any of, because you know I’m right.
If people who believed as you do were running the show in this Country, it wouldn’t be long before we’d all be dead. You want freedom, but refuse to recognize it has a very high price. You keep mentioning torture like we’re grabbing all these poor innocent folks off the streets and putting them through the Spanish Inquisition or something. In reality, we’re only talking about a few high level legitimate terrorist suspects. Not only that, but they still have all their fingers and toes. That’s not a torture victim in my book.
You do need to be set straight. These people hate us and want us all dead. If you want to go hand out tie-dyes to all of them and sit around holding hands and singing kumbaya while you villify George Bush, then I’d say you need someone to point out who the enemy really is. They hung our soldiers bodies from bridge beams, raped and sodomized Private Jessica Lynch, beheaded uncounted soldiers and Iraqui translators, and you think pouring water over a guy’s head is the US going too far? Hello! I think sleep depravation and a few head slaps is a damned fair exchange to get vital information that could save thousands of lives. Oh well, I guess we agree to disagree. You should be glad I’m not in charge of it. Never mind the waterboarding, I’d get medieval on their asses. You’d really want me indicted; I’d make Dick Cheney look like a Walmart Greeter.
Unfortunately for you, even Obama and Company know better than to try tactics like that stark-raving lunatic Dennis Kucinich keeps pushing for. Even other Dems think he’s a nut. Nobody from the Bush administration will ever see an indictment for their roles in protecting the United States of America from attack, and if they did, then your beloved Democratic Congress would be going with them. As I pointed out in one of those facts you ignored, they all knew about it, and didn’t do a damn thing to oppose it. Now they lie and say they didn’t know, but the documentation shows otherwise.
One last thing. I referred to you as miss, not missy. It’s in black and white up above, take a look. Although since you’re a liberal I know that may not be proof enough for you. Miss is generally accepted as a conventional address to a young woman, but if that gets you wrapped too tight I’ll be happy to use Deb from now on.
I don’t need to hurl insults, as I said, I can refute anything you can say with facts. Next time though, I’d appreciate it if you’d take the time to notice those facts, since I’m taking the time to furnish them.
Comment by joker on 4 May 2009:
Oh, and you may want to read this as well; it is a much more in depth analysis as to why the Bush/Cheney “Judgement at Nuremburg” you and Dennis Kook-cinich want so bad will never happen. Take note that the author is not exactly a Bush supporter.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/05/03/look_to_the_future_not_the_past_96313.html
You may also want to take note of his sources, again, not exactly a roll call of NRC members. This is yet another example of proof that your views are radical, and as history has shown, this country has never paid mention to extremists. Radical liberalism is born of passion not tempered by sound judgement, and selfish idealism bordering on irrationality. It is, ultimately, self-defeating.