Spain gets it right. WTF is wrong with us?
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As the stories of the United States’ practice of torture and ‘enhanced interrogation’ techniques grows uglier and uglier, word has come down that Spain has opened an investigation into six former high-level members of the Bush administration for breaking international laws.
The United States, along with Spain and many other nations, signed the 1984 United Nations Convention Against Torture. However, over the last couple of days, we’ve seen which nation takes the law more seriously. Under the terms of the agreement, nations are bound to take action against those who violate international torture laws.
Just because Dick Cheney believed that the United States had the power and authority to simply redefine what torture is doesn’t make it so. And if Dick Cheney thought for just one minute that he was safe traveling around the country bragging about torturing detainees because nobody would dare challenge the United States, he should think twice.
The six Bush administration officials under investigation include:
Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
Former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith
Former Cheney Chief-of-Staff David Addington
Pentagon Lawyer William Haynes
Justice Department officials John Yoo (who wrote the torture memos telling Bush he could torture at will) and Jay S. Bybee, who is now a high-powered Federal judge, no less.
If the United States wants to reclaim its place in the world and take back the moral high ground, it needs to show the rest of the world that we take the rule of law seriously. Nothing less than a thorough investigation and indictments of those responsible is acceptable.
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It is time for the American people to stand up and be heard on this topic. To respond to polls isn’t enough. Regardless of whether you are conservative or liberal, torture is just plain wrong and those who indulge in torture must be held accountable.
Do not let Spain do our dirty work for us. Let’s stand up and face this issue, and show the world that America not only talks the talk, but walks the walk.
Comment by Patricia Della-Piana on 1 April 2009:
And yet, they stopped short of bringing charges against those who authorized the work these lesser folk did. The guys with the “Yes-Power” get off with a sneer?
Comment by Richard on 1 April 2009:
This is entirely a political charade.See my article at:
http://richardcochrane.hypocrisy.com/2009/03/31/jailbird-lawyers-files-torture-charges-against-bush-advisers/
It can not go unnoticed that the lawyer that brings these charges himself was imprisoned for 10-years on terorists charges. Spain is cowed because of the Madrid train attack that killed over 100; wounded nearly 2,000 and has since propelled it to collaborate with Iran despite UN sanctions becoming its 3rd largest trading partner.
Comment by ihentschel on 1 April 2009:
I am wondering if I am walking into a Della-Piana snare here, but here goes:
Yes, political bent does not matter much. Whatever is moral turpitude is just that, and wrong is just wrong. In this case,it goes beyond just wrong and becomes both inhumane and ghastly.
My hope is that going after the little fish first is way of testing the waters before going after the “Yes-power” guys. There is only so much bitter medicine a world can be made to swallow, all at once. My eyeballs have been crossed for eight years; now it is time for my fingers.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 1 April 2009:
Richard, in spite of the fact that Spain may be indulging in political charade, as you say, the United States broke international laws when it tortured detainees. In some cases, they tortured people to death. The sight of Americans with their “thumbs up” while they put people in body bags is disgusting and nauseating. There can be no excuse for it no matter what.
It’s embarrassing. It’s disgraceful. It’s morally wrong. Regardless of Spain’s situation, there is no excuse for America to condone this kind of behavior. We have Dick Cheney running around proudly talking about torture like it’s something to be proud of. It’s not, and it’s not okay because we’re America and we can do it.It’s time for America to face the facts and admit that we broke the law. If this doesn’t stop now, and if people aren’t brought to justice, it will never stop.
And if it doesn’t stop, then it’s ‘no holds barred’ against our troops in any future conflicts we may start (we started this baby).
Comment by Richard on 1 April 2009:
“We” did not break any law.
It is unclear if individuals did.
Domestically, except for the very few, legal experst say “no.”
In any case SPAIN is grandstanding to appease Iran while it breaks U. N. sanctions by trading with it and in fact being its 3rd largest economic partner thereby funding terror and the murder of tens of thousands.
Even excusing such murders you fail to mention the lawyer who filed the SPANISH charges spend 10-years in prison on terror charges, and allegedly faces other indictments.
Comment by Richard on 1 April 2009:
Please cite the casee where anyone was “tortured to death” that has been debunked repeatedly and is a hoax at best.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 1 April 2009:
Who debunked it, Richard, because it was in the Washington Post? And the photos are not fakes, the one where our soldiers are giving the thumbs up to the body in the body bag. That’s not fake. That was at Abu Ghraib.
And, yes, Richard we broke the law. Waterboarding is torture. You have the former vice president admitting it proudly. You have Condoleezza Rice signing an admission to discussing torture at the highest levels while in the White House (with her attorney present). And you have our former imperial dictator admitting it on national television. What more do we need, Richard? Do we want it on film?
Finally, if waterboarding is not torture, why did the United States prosecute and jail Japanese officers who waterboarded our soldiers? That’s a matter of public record. Why isn’t waterboarding torture anymore? Because we did it and it’s okay? Or because Dick Cheney decided to redefine what is and isn’t torture? (Like he has that right?).
In the end, you have to worry about the character of the people of this nation if all they worry about is “we didn’t break any laws” when we tortured people. That’s just plain terrible. There’s no other way for me to describe how that sounds. It sounds inhuman.
Comment by Richard on 1 April 2009:
The Washington Post is your source?!?
Numerous military and international sources anda courts have said there is no such evidence. Had there been that would be murder and prosecuted. By the way the Washington Post says it had no way to substantiate that claim and in fact heavily qualified the statement saying “allegedly.”
Can you cite a credible source?
Comment by LTCDR on 1 April 2009:
JAG fully investigated the ABU GHRAB and your reference to a “body bag” is inappropriate. There was no “death” no “murder.”Youn do a great disservice to our military buy spreading such misinformation.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 1 April 2009:
JAG investigated Abu Ghraib? Are you kidding me? The military investigated itself over torture? Come on. This requires an INDEPENDENT investigation. We’ve seen how the military investigates itself in the past. Yes, there was indeed an internal investigation and many were given immunity to provide information. Here is the information on the investigation and the photos:
http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/introduction/
And the pictures do not lie. They are real and they are there. Abu Ghraib was not a lie. The torture was not a lie. And these aren’t stories. This is not ME making up stories. These stories are everywhere. We have high-level administration officials, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice and George Bush himself admitting to authorizing torture. It was done.
You, my friend, are doing this country a great disservice by refusing to accept the facts. Enough with the internal investigation and the immunity. Unless someone besides low-level grunts who follow orders are punished — like those who AUTHORIZED this torture — the United States hasn’t dealt with this violation of human rights. And this should not be swept under the carpet. If you truly care about this country, then you know this has to come out and we have to own up to it.
And the only person who has done our service men and women a disservice is George W. Bush. He’s the one who started the war, a war based on outright lies, and set this sorry set of wheels in motion. He is responsible and those who aided him in his quest for military domination are accessories. It’s time to bring them to justice.
(By the way, read the article. All the links are real. Much of the information has been ‘hidden’ while Bush was in office, and many people are now just coming forward. Military personnel who risked their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to gain by lying. There are no lies here.)
Comment by LTCDR on 1 April 2009:
No, I am not “kidding.” Perhaops you have more experience with the JAG, and UCMJ than I. Your implicationn that the US Military is corrupt is both instulting and abjectly an insult to tens of millions of Americans who have and do serve. I solicit my comrades to dispute your radical UnAmerican views.
Comment by doloresleroi on 3 April 2009:
I have been sitting quietly as you (LTCDR) have been making comments about the issue of torture used during the war on terror. There is ample proof that torture was used by this country in direct violation of international law and the Geneva Convention. This must be investigated INDEPENDENTLY of the military and the U.S. government. This is not an un-American view, my friend. This is very much what America stands for.
Now, if there is nothing to hide. If our previous president broke no laws. If his administration is clean and if the military investigation was complete, then an independent investigation should be welcomed. Period.
As for your reference to COMRADES, perhaps it is you with the un-American view.
Comment by harveymudd on 3 April 2009:
As usual, Dolores, you have beat me to it! Perhaps that it because I’m woefully behind on everything, including my own blog! On the way to my blog, however, I did stop here and I think this is more important for the moment.
I agree wholeheartedly with you and Deb. This is a huge issue for the United States; it will determine what we are made of as a nation. We are constantly watching and critiquing other nations in terms of human rights. We have expectations of them. However, if we are to be taken seriously, we must clean our own house first. If there’s nothing to “clean,” then fine. But there is certainly enough evidence that we’ve broken the law to warrant an investigation. As Dolores has stated, if there’s nothing there, then nothing will come of it.
If, however, it is determined that the previous administration did break international laws and violate the Geneva Conventions, then the process must move forward and indictments must be handed down. Doesn’t matter of it’s George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, or any other high-ranking official. Nobody in the United States is above the law.
As for the military being corrupt? I propose to you that any large organization has the potential for corruption. Asking the military to investigate itself is as foolish as asking Wall Street to regulate itself.
harveymudds last blog post..Pathetic response inexcusable
Comment by LCDR on 3 April 2009:
For you to brand U. S. military men and women of toture and murder is reprehensible. Like ay group of millions there are bad apples and they are excised and punished for much more minor offenses. Clearly neither of you have had even a nodding knowledge of the US military its UCMJ or the processes of JAG. If anyone break civilian law or the UCMJ they should be tried and if convicted punished.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 3 April 2009:
Hey, LCDR, I didn’t see either of these people do any such thing. However, SOMEBODY did it. And SOMEBODY approved of it. The soldiers posing in the photos with their thumbs up in approval are not dummies. They haven’t been Photoshopped into the documents. If you are suggesting that none of this actually happened and it’s the figment of an entire nation’s imagination, then you are the mistaken one.
Are you paying attention? Our former Vice President, Richard Cheney, is making the rounds of every possible news show and outlet he can find to announce to the planet that — yes, he authorized waterboarding and other torture techniques — and he’s damned proud of it. I’ve said this before and it seems you aren’t listening: Condoleezza Rice is the only person who responded to the Levin Commission’s inquiry and admitted that SHE LED high-level discussions about the use of torture inside the White House. She signed paperwork attesting to this fact and had her attorney present. She’s not a stupid woman. She knows how serious this is.
You keep arguing the same thing: I’m un-American and un-patriotic. That’s you’re only comment. That’s not the case and you have no case. This must be investigated and, if the investigation warrants it, indictments must follow. Spain should not be doing our dirty work. If we have the best system of justice, then let it move forward.
Comment by LCDR on 3 April 2009:
Your are trying to obscure the issue. You asserted murder, and said the US military is corrupt and can not or will not police itself. Dragging Spain into the issue is a further absurdity. Accusing America’s military men and women is un-American and un-patriotic in the extreme.
As I continuously assert - if there is something unlawful it should be punished. Your accusation that the US military can not do so is an offense to all those who have a do serve honorably.
But, I waste my time.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 3 April 2009:
You’re right. You are wasting your time because it is you who is obscuring the issue. You are making the issue MY PATRIOTISM or my un-Americanism, when that is not the issue at all. Abu Ghraib is but one site where torture was carried out: There’s Baghram and Guantanamo. There are hundreds of secret CIA prisons. There is the issue of “extraordinary rendition.” This is a big topic.
No, I do not believe the military should investigate itself. (I also do not believe any other branch of government should investigate itself. It is simply not credible.) This whole subject of torture is bigger than a military inquiry. It is all about elected public servants at the highest level of government authorizing torture and breaking international laws. It requires an independent investigation by an independent prosecutor.
Stop making this a military issue. It is not a military issue.
Comment by proletarian on 3 April 2009:
Deb, could you direct me to where I can find John Woo’s memos telling President Bush he could torture at will? I have read all his memos, the publised ones anyway, and can’t find that statement anywhere. I sincerely would appreciate it.
However, my purpose of this post is to ask when you are going to quite beating a dead horse? You know, the Bush bashing. Nothing will ever come of it and you’re just wearing yourself out. Best case scenario, when you’re bashing him ten years from now nobody will know who he is.
You might turn your attention to what our current beloved president is doing to sell us out. Within ten years all of our financial institutions will be under the direct control of European elitists, the IMF. Nineteen Eureopeans, one American. What say you?
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 4 April 2009:
You can see the documents declassified by the government in two parts at my Scribd site
http://www.scribd.com/my_docs
And you know what, Proletarian? I’m not going to stop beating a dead horse. This cannot be allowed to fade into the black. It will never stop if it does. I’m not Bush bashing. You guys should just grow up. You think it’s okay for the United States to do whatever the hell it wants whenever it wants, regardless of the rule of law. I do not and I never will, so why don’t YOU stop beating a dead horse. I don’t give a damn what happens to George Bush in ten years. All I know is that if he is remembered, it should be as the most lawless president in American history. History should not be kind to him.
As for our current president, well, now the shoe is on the other foot. You worry about him.
Comment by Ruth on 4 April 2009:
Deb: You do yourself and those who may agree with you a disservice by being nasty and insulting. If you have an cogent argument it will stand on its own. Otherwise you demean yourself and your argument pushing others away.
Comment by Geralyn on 4 April 2009:
Deb, didn’t you vote for Obama?
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 6 April 2009:
Hello Ruth, I honestly do not remember being nasty and insulting to you. I merely stated that it will take several years to mount a campaign against gay marriage in Iowa. As for my sarcasm, I don’t apologize for it. That’s my style of political writing.
Basically, we all think our arguments are cogent. I believe that mine, in regards to gay marriage, is strong because it’s based on the Constitution. That’s just the way it is. I do not believe anyone has the right to tell someone else who they can love and marry. I have far more issues in my personal life to worry about. I haven’t got time to stick my nose into anyone else’s personal business. I have a hard time figuring out why others must.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 6 April 2009:
Hello Geralyn. Yes, I voted for Obama but, as I’ve explained before, he was not my first choice. My first choice for president was Dennis Kucinich.
However, my values and beliefs are very far removed from the Republican ideal. I’m not a GOP believer and I never have been and, even if I had been, I never would have voted for McCain-Palin. In my mind, that would have been the biggest disaster for this country. I am not the only one who feels that way. I have several GOP friends and none of them voted in 2008.
My family consists of two women (myself and my wife - we’ve been together for 17 years)and my two children (ages 12 and 8). “We” are included in the Republican platform only in the most negative of tones. To vote Republican simply isn’t in my family’s best interest. Obama was the last Democrat standing and I voted for him. Had Hillary Clinton been the nominee, I would have voted for her. I also do not believe I have the right to complain unless I vote. Just because I am registered to the Democratic party, it doesn’t mean that I agree with everything that an elected official does.
I do not believe we should be sending troops to Afghanistan. I believe we should get the hell out of Afghanistan and Iraq. On the other hand, I agree with Obama’s attempts to open dialogues with our “enemies.” I agree with those who say “You keep your friends close and your enemies closer.” I think Tim Geithner and Lawrence Summers are scumbags who helped to cause this problem and they should not be where they are. On the other hand, I think Hillary Clinton was a good choice.
So…like I said. Yin and Yan.
Comment by Ruth on 7 April 2009:
Maybe you are just too blinded or dense that you can not see how your venom drives people, like me, away. That’s now my conclusion. Your have successfully convinced me you and your “causes” are not worth further consideration.
Comment by Deb Della Piana on 7 April 2009:
Hey Ruth, your decision. So be it.
Comment by slowsmile on 7 April 2009:
I’ve read all the blogs here with interest, although I am slightly puzzled at the denials.
The evidence for torture from the both my own readings and from Deb’s evidence firmly suggests this to be undisputed fact. To be both in denial of this, as well as saying it is unpatriotic or demeaning to say such a thing is a little childish and off-base since the military were quite clearly directed to torture people(had no choice) by the likes of Cheney et al. And like Deb said, both Cheney and Bush have admitted it on TV, no arguments there. Both Bush and Cheney know they are beyond prosecution because their torture policies were implemented in countries with no “torture agreements”.
And remember, for all those multitudes still in denial, that by this very act of torture America has set a very dangerous precedent. What I’m saying here is that if Americans or Europeans are allowed to torture people, then I guess, in any future foreign conflicts, it will be OK for the enemy to torture Americans or Europeans in similar fashion - since, quite evidently, a precedent has been set by these American politicians.
The implications here go well beyond being unpatriotic and demeaning and might , perhaps, be adequately described in the simple saying “What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander too….”.
I, for one, feel there can be no adequate reason for torturing another human being, but I am also aware that it goes on - perpetually - worldwide even now by all sides.